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It's interesting you brought this thread up because we might start trying a variation of this for TDM games in SRW vs SIN nights.

From watching Sprig's recent video it's easy to see that SIN felt like our rampart/sledgehamer/clarion strategy was barely different from our usual strategy in which we use 1 or 2 warcarriers.


It seems like the biggest problem with meta TDM is that it's basically impossible to penetrate a well coordinated nest of gunships that are supported. It doesn't exactly matter what they're supported by, as long as there's something. Also, slug railguns stack really well. Once an attacking scout's evasion cooldowns are gone, he's dead.


However, many people (myself included) do not enjoy "dogfighting" turn battle games very much. We've played them in the past. They're a lot like Strike nights. There's not much room for teamwork and it takes forever to kill anything.


I think the best games would be the ones with the most ship variety and builds possible. And the most opportunity for teamwork. What does that mean? It means we need to prioritize weapons/cooldowns with debuffs and buffs. It means we need every ship type. But it also means nests should be very easy to break.


The more I think about it, the more I think slug railgun is to blame. It's a weapon that is literally a decent choice in every single situation in the game. When in doubt, slug something and you're going to help your team. And the fact that it works from such a huge range means that it's even more useful because you rarely have to put yourself in danger to use it. The only downfall is that you need to fly a relatively slow ship in order to use slug. But if you can always run back to a nest at the first sign of trouble, then that isn't really an issue anymore.


So what about this...

Ban T1 scout, T2 scout, T1 bomber, T2 bomber, and SLUG railgun?
Posted May 10, 17 · OP · Last edited May 10, 17
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This would mean you could still use:

T1 GS ion/plasma - to break apart nests and provide team support via various railgun debuffs

T3 Scout - provide heals and decent DPS via Target Telemetry

T3 Bomber - provide interdiction drone to protect T1 GS

T1 Strike and T2 Strike - either CP or directional shield builds. Ion might nullify these ships though.

T3 Strike - tankier version of the other CP strikes. Less DPS.

T3 GS - BLC + dual missiles build would be good for attacking as well as defending

T2 GS - probably wouldn't be used much but it's another option.


Thoughts?
Posted May 10, 17 · OP · Last edited May 11, 17
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I suggested this in the other thread precisely because I thought we might try this or something like it.

The discussion about slugs vs CP seems a bit off topic, since the original suggestion effectively banned the component already, allowing, of the gunships, only the T2, and only without slug.

Minor nitpicking: Shield piercing and shield bleedthrough are multiplicative, so slugs vs CP should do 42.4% of their damage to hull.

On only banning slug, rather than any particular gunship, my 1st thought is that ion railgun would probably shut down strikes too easily.
Posted May 11, 17
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Yea that's true. But at least the T3 Strike, T3 bomber, and T3 GS could counter ion with power dive.
Posted May 11, 17 · OP
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The T2 GS will have an advantage over the T3 GS in that it can still railgun, and over the T1 GS in that it has directional (might be better against plasmas/ions), so I think it could be useful.

As for the rest - the T1 strike will be really weak against ions without quick-charge, and will probably be weak with quick-charge against anything else. Still, it might not be too bad. Other than that though, I think this works.
Posted May 11, 17
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A short answer since I don't have time to write a longpost atm:

Just as an incentive what if you would go for theme matches such as highlighting a special nonmeta more or less crazy build? If both groups highlight the same build it might get away from nests depending on the build.

Examples:
T3 strike with remote slicing
T3 bomber as an Overcharged shields build
T1 Scout with sensor beacon.

As mentioned this is just an idea which you can modify to your hearts content.
You could also try to protect someone or do a drako-birthday-like match.
Posted May 11, 17
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That's an interesting idea. Rather than having theme nights I was actually considering the idea of allowing theme ships. For example T1 scout with emp/lc/pods and T2 scout with blaster overcharge/RFL/sab. The idea would be to make it so that interesting components actually have a reason to be used. But would those builds make Strikes obsolete?
Posted May 11, 17 · OP · Last edited May 11, 17
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Ok after having done some thinking I understood that Directionals have a better defensive use, though they are harder to pull off.
Close-shave Do you have any calculations comparing CP with Quickcharge or Shield Projector? Also I saw you argumenting against CP with "So you're literally not gaining anything from CP except some tankiness vs. quads/LC/LCC/RFLC, which you can avoid by moving." in Discord. But isn't it easier to evade HLCs and Pods than quads/LC/LLC/RFLC? aren't these arguments kind of balancing each other out?

I guess my enthusiasm for Cp comes from the T1 bomber on the node. The CP build has definetly its place there (just looking at the meta) but I guess its main response is to avoid damage from mines especially seismic mines. Since the same nieche the CP in normal matches has doesn't exist in non meta CP looses a lot of its uses in comparison to normally.

Though sth. else I like about CP is the erradic movement it grants you through crashing. The only way I think it is possible to use this in a non meta environment would be for faster turns around the satelite or in evasive / erradic flying (through crashing).
Another minor pluspoint of CP is the T3 shunt with that it is possible to have higher chances to evade from a gunship after being ioned if you are closer to a surface. => so in non meta the profit from the shunt is also reduced.

The last comment why CP is worse for strikes than the bombers in meta is the 95% instead of 99%. Due to this you need at least hydrospanner or Repair Probes for constant use (or a definite repair drone from a T3 scout). Thus either a system or Co-Pilot ability is needed which makes Directionals more effective.

Personally I must say that I probably would use the T3 with CP since I really like this erradic style of flying.
Posted May 18, 17 · Last edited May 18, 17
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I think CP is just plain bad in the meta no matter how you slice it. CP is actually quite average on the T1 bomber too, but it's better than the other two choices. Overcharged shield takes way too long to regenerate, and shield projector is even more fragile than CP. Vexxial actually uses shield projector on his T1 bomber. I've tried shield projector with lightweight armor and suppression co-pilot. It's actually a decent build unless you start seeing seismic mines (and then it sucks). Overcharged shield with StE converter is super tanky. But you are basically forced to take CP because you want the beacon. The immunity against seismic mines, the 5 engine shunt to "counter" ion, and the ability to smash into the satellite are decent small bonuses. But if different shield options were available, I think you'd see them used.
Posted May 18, 17 · OP · Last edited May 18, 17
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You can't really compare CP with QC or shield projector, because they behave differently and are designed for different scenarios. That being said, CP is only good because, as Siraka said, the other options are weak usually - they do not mitigate mine damage as well as CP, and in order to take OCS you need to sacrifice a beacon.

Avoiding HLC is not the same as avoiding any other blaster, because HLC has insane accuracy at range and has the longest range. Meaning, I can park at 6000m and reliably hit you if required. In addition to that, HLC have high DPSh compared to any other blaster but BLC, so even a single shot will hurt (over 450 damage to hull per single shot, meaning 144 hull damage even through full shields via shield piercing and bleed through). That's ~10% of your hull lost to a single shot, you can't tell me you think that's worth it. Other blasters need more time on target to deal significant damage. In combination with the fact that their range is shorter, they are much less effective (it's hard to stay on target for a significant time >2000m, which is why BLC > LLC/RFLC). Pods are utility, they're mainly useful once shields are already down. That being said, their rate of fire is more similar to that of BLC than any other blaster - so you can readjust your aim in-between shots. So yes, pods and HLC are harder to avoid than other blasters, and they are more devastating.

As you say, CP loses most of the reasons people use it in non-meta nights - only one bomber, only interdiction drones/concussion mines are worth using CP against. Apart for them, only one missile available is countered by CP - clusters. Interdiction drones and clusters are all countered by other shield options too, notably directionals, so that's no reason to take CP. So, you're going to be taking a certain shield option, which objectively kills you faster against anything but concussion mines?

Crashing in a non-meta environment wouldn't be nearly as useful, because you won't have anyone sticking to you (no BLC). If I'm parked 5000m from you locking on missiles and firing HLC, you crashing will not phase me at all. The T3 already has two counters to ion railguns - PD and directionals. Crashing (or engine power shunt) don't offer more than that, I don't see the need for them.

If you still feel after all this that CP is a viable option on non-meta nights, I assume SIn will be holding an event like that soon. Start working on a CP clarion on JC, and show up there! I promise you'll change your mind quickly.
Posted May 18, 17
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